CONVERSATION: Marsha Waggoner

Welcome to ramble City.

Brad: Todays guest is Marsha Waggoner, an Australian born American professional poker player whose long and storied career has landed her in the Women’s Hall of fame. Despite playing as a young child, her career started by chance, originally entering casinos as the very first female black jack dealer in Australia - with countless tournaments to her belt, including World Series of Poker tournament, placings and wins, she had chips printed with her face on it, and witnessed the changing face of poker over the last forty years.

Marsha: Right pertaining to Poker right? So that was my career. Yeah for 40 years or so, whatever since then 

Brad: you still playing?

Marsha: Yeah. Yeah, I still play em, I don't play for time now, but I do play once or twice a week

Brad:  is it like is it more than just like a game? It's like you you love it and you know, 

Marsha: I don't love. It anymore fat it's kind of like work. I mean because when I did it as a Korea I You know, it was a job. I was supporting my two kids and so it wasn't like something I could do for fun. I didn't care if I won or lost I needed to win. So I when I found out like overall I could I could be a winning poker player. That's when I became a pro. And it's so was it and it went on for 40 years since 75 actually. 

Brad: It's all was never prior to that some like you went like when was the first time you play cards? Do you remember the further very 

Marsha: well when I was a kid at home, but not necessarily poker. But I didn't think anything of it at the time because you know, we play with neighbors and my parents used to play a game called Yuca and with Rick friends and take kids along and I can remember wanting to them ask a single. Let me play let me play and once in a while every play, 

Brad: but did they let you win? 

Marsha: Well, that i don't remember but I do remember though when we Supply it home and and it dawned on me that hey I used to win all the time and I didn't think about anything all that. I thought I supposed to win. Yeah, 

Brad: so you didn't it didn't register knew that you were winning. You just enjoyed playing. Yeah, you don't remember 

Marsha: like I was a kid. Yeah, you know, maybe 10 12 years old something but actually I didn't get into poker to later in life. I was where I was in my world was I in 75 I was 35. 

Brad: How did it come about what how did you 

Marsha: well I lived in Sydney and I used to like to play Blackjack and they had some a few illegal casinos around Sydney. Yeah, but I've been to know the my girlfriend I used to go to the races and we knew people that were kind of connected with that. 

Brad: Sort of world. 

Marsha: Well, yeah, so we would go there and anything from racehorse owners trainers and jockeys and and whatever, but I wish you can play the at the casino and blackjack and I used to like to do that and that was to win playing Blackjack to because looking back at when I was in school. Or I left school at 14 years of age my favorite subject and best subject was math and that comes into play. Yes, you know, 

Brad: I've heard that I'm too hopeless to know better

Marsha: so are you know, I should be the Blackjack and they said to me listen, you don't have to come in there and it just let us know. I should send you every week. Yeah, 

Brad: we'll settle it lower than will normally lose

Marsha: right. So, like I said I had to change cute joke is that point? I the Blackjack deal as there. I thought they were doing very well make you money that being like checked it was so I told one of the bonus and I want to be a blackjack dealer. And it said, oh, we're okay. Come on, we will show you how you can come down and we'll show you how So when I went there and I will teach me how to shuffle the cards. The guy came from another room and said we doing some going to be blackjack dealer, which is you don't need to be blackjack dealer at you. You can be the first lady poker dealer in Australia. You could be a poker dealer, cause he had a poker game in the other room. And I said, I don't have to do that either. So what will show you so let's check the show me how to deal cards and so now going to do 

Brad : and you were the first female poker dealer. 

Marsha: Yeah, and then they said God deal so so I did but part of the the job was I had to be a dealer one night. It was to deal as we would be like we D like good evenin. On the image of all through the however long the game went usually start at about midnight and I would deal one night and the next night if they needed to play I would have to be a player. So I and I had to play with the money that I earned the night before. Well, I money I had to play with my money. Well, so the I was earning work around $300 a night, which is a lot of money at that time. 

Brad: That's what I was thinking. Yeah, so, 

Marsha: but if I lost half of what I ended up before I was about to stop playing so I wouldn't be a loser. 

Brad: Yeah, 

Marsha: so I found out that I had a natural feel for the cards and I took a seriously I'll be became a wedding player. I continue to deal for like a year. And then I had a lot of money after yeah, you know a lot of money to me. Oh, yeah, you know, I know you got a Pocketful of money and not know what to buy sort of thing. Had my son in top boarding school in Sydney brown boys grammar school and Trinity. I think it's called. Then after a year, I decided I was tired of the the hours. I was like getting home in the morning before going to the beach and I could go to bed and I can like that to my show after year. I decided to I had lived in the state's previous to that. I decided my ex-husband was in this feature an American and I decided that you know, one of the kids to be closer to him and decided to move back over there after a year of dealing poker. So by that time I was basically a poker player and 

Brad: because you were because you was you were dealing but then you would sitting in essentially when they needed you to 

Marsha: well, I was dealing every other night and playing every other night. 

Brad: So by the end it was it was more. Hang on a minute. Like there was somewhere along that you something tweaked and you where you went. 

Marsha: Yeah. I didn't really like dealing I didn't like the idea that we're not dealing is always somebody has to lose and I you know pretty bit of a softie. 

Brad: Yeah, 

Marsha: and I don't like dealing people losing hands. 

Brad: Yeah, you felt more responsible than sitting at a table. Yeah. What was that? Do you think?

Marsha:  Um, I guess it's just my nature. Yeah, and I know that I feel for people. 

Brad: Yeah. 

Marsha: Yeah, not my responsibility. 

Brad: But you know, you can't help it. Yeah. Yeah, you think being a parent at that time made you look at it differently. Like being a well 

Marsha: it was a business for me. It wasn't a fun thing. Yeah, so yeah, I am. I was doing what I had to do to support the kids and have decent lifestyle and decided to go back to the US and that was in the end of round my 1975 or there were some time 1976 I went back over there. (break in exported cut) my ex-husband was living in Reno? So we went to Reno and cut in Nevada, which is like a little Las Vegas. sort of thing. I didn't want to play poker.

Brad: So what was it like when you first sat down to play poker like then after being told 

Marsha: it was really strange because I found This poker game and I didn't really know that City at that point 

Brad: still in reno? 

Marsha: Oh, yeah, and I look around and I found the poker game and it was out playing a game called them article was six cards done. Like some are at least seven card stud. Right? Well, I think they'll drink six kinds dead. So there's no River card. No last card, right? Yeah, and I look at the table. Oh and they were ending actual dimes like little tiny 10 cent pieces though the Yankees, so I sat in the game and I added a diamonds and I see them no to Padilla die. We funny I thought she wait what kind of game is this? So I guess I played there once or twice and you know when I was dealing in Sydney. If for instance somebody didn't tip the dealer. Because the dealer the deal is here and in the US the dealers are to get paid minimum wage, so they have to depend on getting tickets to make a living. Yes. Yes. Oh well, so when the game I always working in Sydney if somebody didn't tip you you you had the right to take two dollars out of the pot. That was just the so here. 

Brad: Hey, 

Marsha: I didn't say they're very long that little tiny game, but I moved to a bigger game. 

Brad: And will you was it as natural as 20 more? 

Marsha: Like whoa, whoa got became natural pretty quick to me. Because like I said, I had a natural feel for the card. First game. I played in the bigger game was a six card stud game. Had played Five Card Stud in in Australia. Yes, which was a different slightly different because they dealt the first card down in the last card down. 

Brad: Yeah, 

Marsha Mic: whereas in the u.s. When they play five-card stud they deal for card up. 

Brad: Yeah 

Marsha: and one down or whatever maybe one day maybe the first one down. So I started playing game six card stud where there was six. Cards and I just adjusted to it and I played that game. For a considerable amount of time. I made that my game a choice at that point and we I had the kids in school and I used to play that while I'm in school and and the stop at the grocery store on the way home and go cook the dinner and do 

Brad: it was literally youre nine to five

Marsha: Yeah, essentially. Yeah, I stick and started play about 11:00 in the morning something. 

Brad : And is it a lot of pressure like knowing you had that list that amount of time you couldn't just like clock in and clock out when you were ready. 

Marsha: It didn't seem like it looking back. I mean the game wasn't that big that I couldn't hurt myself too much. If I did lose and of course these days when you do lose but then I look I saw another game in the room when I thought wonder what that game is and I had a look at it and they were playing them the game where they dealt everybody two cards and then they put a flop out there which I didn't. Flop wise but it turned out to be Texas. Holdem.

Brad: Yeah, 

Marsha: so that was the next game I moved on and to play then now my favorite game to play is horse, which is a combination of five different games. They holden, Omaha, Raz, which is a stud low game stunt high and then stud high-low. Splick and 

Brad: all of them all the loves. 

Marsha: Yeah. Yeah, it's not not just boring. 

Brad: Yeah. So what is it like when you actually what is it feel like when you sit down at the table at a poker table because I mean like for someone like me, I am hopeless like could you tell that I hope list right away and would you like you just say 

Marsha: Yeah. Well, yeah, 

Brad: I mean that's disappointing to hear. Well, yeah. 

Marsha: Well, I mean, yeah. Well, you're going to get lucky though. Sometimes what I know. 

Brad: Would I even know? 

Marsha: Well, you probably would people ask me to teach sometimes and basically I just tell them, you know, they do your two cards if the pretty you play am not they're not talking to each other I king dueve do so something it says you don't buy them. 

Brad: How much of it then it's things that you can't you can't teach because I'm so fascinated with the idea of where like, it's like instinct crosses over with with the skill and the craft and where the two like in any in any sort of thing that we do with the Instinct- There's that Crossroad between the two where your how much are we thinking in and how much are we just playing, you know in any sort of sport or write music or anything where that skill kind of crosses over. How do they intersect in Pokér do you think

Marsha: Well, this is different aspects of every every hand and every game really. I think it's important to be selective when you're before you play in a game. I mean, you don't want to be it in a poker game. You want to have some sort of an edge to play in any game of juice play. So I look around and see it, you know. How many of these players do I know and if I don't then I'll I'll pay attention and see and watch how they have a play and a lot of players have have habits Sometimes good sometimes not, you know, then there's the there's the the player that doesn't get to play much. Well, they everything looks good enough right there want to play every hand they want to be in action. And of course, that's the kind of player that the professional poker players like to its I made me across the table why but then comes to what hand are you going to play? So the there's there are certain hands that form in different categories in the Game of Poker and which is the Tend to place to start with you know, 

Brad : so it's a math. So that's a skill side. 

Marsha: Well, that's no that's a choice of which hands you're going to play so naturally to racist you going to play. 

Brad: Yeah. Yeah, 

Marsha: and then it goes down from there. Now it's changed a lot because the young up-and-coming poker players have actually made the game change. This happened ten or so years ago when a guy named Chris Moneymaker won the World Series of Poker and he started with a 40 dollar satellite. do you know what satellite is? 

Brad: no

Marsha:  well as satellite is... they have big tournaments and in the World Series of Poker. The main event is a $10,000 by in so everyone has to pay 10,000 to play in that tournament. But people can't afford that kind of money for win or lose, so they have satellite tournaments, which there are tournaments that you play you pay a small amuntof money. In this case of his case. It was $40. And if you win that table, well, you might have three or four hundred dollars towards-  see 

Brad: so that's how he started his roll, essentially

Marsha: So then he played in a bigger satellite where they had multiple tables like you can have a satellite could be one table or it could be a mega satellite where they have a hundred cables. And they might get even more than 110 thousand dollars he out of it. 

Brad: So he got his entry out of a saddle had a $40 out like 

Marsha: out of a 40 dollar satellie. hmm. And then he went ahead to win the main event, which I don't remember prize money, but it was over a million dollars and that like and that was televised and that got the attention of a lot of kids that wanted to do - well if he can do that we can do that. 

Brad: cause there was no need to grind out, no amount of time to get the money together and then make the trip and then, like it was is that the difference? 

Brad: Well, they yeah. Well, they can win it right by risking a small amount of money. They can win a seat and then by doing that they've got an opportunity to win big money now. Now, you know, I could be 10 million. It could be anything  but how can that be different, for that don't have any experience in the old school thinking of it. How is it different before they met like what was the difference or is it just that the amounts had gotten so big so quickly 

Marsha: it's always been 10,000 and there's different ways to to approach that tournament. A lot of people don't want to risk 10,000 of their own money. So other people can consider there. They've got the talent to to win and invest in them. So that's getting staked and you can get staked and Iowa state in the first time. I played in the main event of the World Series him. 

Brad: tell us about that one

Marsha: I think that was somewhere on the the early 90s or the late 80s I cashed in it didn't cash for a lot of money but and they didn't have any many players like now they could have thousands of plays in that event, but then they had maybe less than 1000 and I think I finished something like 23rd or one time I finished 23rd one time I finished 19th and I was able to give the investor the $10,000 back and then make a profit and split that, split that with that person. That's how that works. It's when moneymaker won the tournament and the kids started getting in involved in poker. They changed the game a lot. They played a lot faster than the old timers so to speak, 

Brad: yeah

Marsha: you know, we Played more carefully and they might push all that ships in with a any two cards like I six try for five or any two cards and I... and sometimes I'll get a favorite and it might be nine seven, you know wonder why 

Brad:  and what so you're they're trying to look at the thinking behind it all and try hard. Well, I have no idea why is it,. So the thinking of around the game changed, 

Marsha: yeah, but that's that's Where the luck comes into so the the lack does come into poker but there's also a lot of skill and skill is the choosing the game, choosing the hand to play, knowing when to that hand is no good anymore and just throw it away like you might have to fold her Queens, you know before the Flop comes down because the pots been raised. Re-raise somebody's moved in and you've got two queens event grow. What am I gonna do with these two queens if I don't hit one of them on the Flop, right and they are dying aren't you? 

Brad: yeah

Marsha: So in that case, of course you throw them away and then, you know people going to turn over Aces or Kings or something. They would have beat you 

Brad: and then how much of it then is maneuvering people though.  do you think?

Marsha: Well, it depends on their hand. You can't really believe it. I've seen like people Dragon Kings Way before the floor. So they can be maneuvered but nine times out of ten. They're up against two Aces. So you don't do it without a lot of thought and then there are other times when you can get into a pot with a small pair, get lucky in hit that pair or - and win with it up against the and overpair. I was someone else might have but then in the olden days, I suppose I could say, from when I started to play serious poker the early 80s in Las Vegas first time I played in a poker tournament in the World Series event. They have a series of events where they each different one starts every day. And one of those was the ladies of that whether the only ladies played the first time I played in the event. I played in the ladies event. It was a seven card stud event and I end up getting heads up. With another lady, you know, the rest of the field was gone after a day or two and I'm heads up and I play heads up with the other player for seven hours and the money was like going like 

Brad: back and forth

Marsha: back and forth and I had made a deal with myself if I started to play that and I said well in this tournament, I'm not going to play for any straight or flush it. I decided I thought I'd have a better chance. So I didn't I didn't play for any straighter for watches 

Brad: so you succeeded in holding to that 

Marsha: and I did so I only played with pairs to start with and and then after all this time playing heads up they dealt with these three cards that I could was nine ten. Jack of diamonds. And so that look so pretty I said I got to take one off, with this hand. So anyway kept the story story bit short. I made the flush in five. 

Brad: Wow

Marsha: And I thought I was gonna win the tournament but the other player had two pairs and turned out she filled up what made a full house on the river and I was um, time I was gone. 

Brad: On the 

Marsha: I was finished. I think I come in second. Yeah, you're real. 

Brad: You're like, I'm really so pretty you did. Yeah Lord into the sorrow of the diamond. 

Marsha: Yeah. I mean you think when you see this kind of kind of thing for a straight flush, but you should think a little further because I straight up the odds of making a straight flush are, it's very long 

Brad: do you think that's the biggest skill of like really grinding out and having a success a long successful career is taking that extra thought-  always thinking it right the way through or because sometimes it must be just a gut instinct in you go here we go 

Marsha: went you are beat, you've got to realize that you are big bigger Beach because the other player is giving you the information of have the value of their hand by the bets that they make and by how big they are because like now I'm talking no limit. Yeah. Hold on, which is the main game and and Most of the newer younger players are primarily No Limit Hold'em players, they love them don't even know how to play the other games. I saw a girl throw hand away the other day in a monster tournament. I'm not sure what the buy-in was. I think I might have been 25,000 or something and she had Ace queen and the Flop came like a king queen king queen Jack or something and that was the flop. So go check to check to her they choose heads up. I checked her she bet.  and the turn and come another queen 

0:31:41

brad mic: which gave her three queens Queens. 

Marsha: So so check her again. So she made a big bag and the guy still call the guy had aces in his hand what but she had ace queen and there were two queens out there. So she had three queens and he had two Aces so on the river... Comes an ace... the last ace, which made him Aces full queens and her Queens Four Aces. 

Brad: Yeah. 

Marsha: He checked her again and she bet again she's wearing a big bat and he said well, I'm all-in. He put all his chips in. And she thought about it a long time and she turned over ace queen and threw it in the muck. That's pretty big lay down. 

Brad: Guttsy

Marsha: ya. She knew he had aces. she said that's the only thing he could have to do that.

Brad: I don't think I've got the resolution or is maybe the resolve that it takes to handle those moments, you know, that's the sport of it. Isn't that that's the people taking big shots in sporting game, in the you know, and in all sorts of sports, you know, this shot at this moment - buzzer - win,  that's it like it's there so much. It's like the focus. It takes to just stay present and just to be in that and then really think that through - It blows my mind a little bit actually 

Marsha: it does. 

Brad: Yeah, I think so a lot of constitution. Yeah II was the moment ever overwhelming for you in hands. You played like that. 

Marsha: I've made pretty big laydowns. Yeah, I mean about have to lay my hand down throw it away. Yeah, I mean feeling confident that it wasn't any good anymore. You've got a risk either going to risk being knocked out of the tournament by making that that last call or you look at the chips and you say, i'm still in the tournament and you still have a chance. 

Brad: So all these thoughts come to mind. How do we afford to just it's all these different things that are coming up for you at different times in all different ways and you're dealing with them bit by bit and then in the game and just follow yeah, 

Marsha: and then and then there's a time when somebody might call a clock and hurry up. 

Brad: Is it harder to lay down or to really back yourself? Do you think in one of those hands? So in the same situation where you know that they've got it and you know that you don't have it or whatever, or is that harder than you don't think they have it and you know, you have it like which is kind of takes more guts. Do you think - or it the same way 

Marsha: to read it's read and there's a lot of people that have towels in Boca. Yeah, they do certain things when they have certain hands and they don't know they're doing it but you do, you know, and you've got to be on the guard for the sort of thing. 

Brad: Does that transfer over to like real life? Like do you think that type of 

Marsha: oh, yes. Yes. 

Brad: I've called you like you're at the grocery store. And you said you got you know bananas and they say no and you're like, I know you doubt the back. It's like yeah, it's like a superpower it is. Yeah, dude. There's you remember any significant tells or anything like any something like that or is it what about for yourself? Is it like do you monitor yourself in that way? Sometimes did you discover your own towels or well not that you should say them. 

Marsha: I don't think I don't think I haven't but I'm not a people think that way I may may may well have some 

Brad: do  you think everyone thinks they don't it's just whether you actually can recognize them the things that the people don't see in themselves 

Marsha: a lot of things like come to having a what they call a poker face so that you don't change your expression and that's why a lot of these younger players where the hoodies and sunglasses at the table and they can recover their whole place up because they don't want you to see 

Brad: because they don't have a poker face. haven't developed one. 

Marsha: Haven't so some places are coming cracking down on things like that. And so there's not going to be any threat of 

Brad: wearing a Spider-Man mask at the table 

Marsha: trying to ridiculous, you know noticed house. Like I know one person friend of mine. It was talks a lot at the table when he's got a big hand if he's in the pot right got him because he said talks a lot. Yeah. You know where some people just don't say anything. Yeah. 

Brad: Is it is it do you think it was harder in the early days when you weren't as well known. Do you think it's harder now? That kind of this it's like, you know, when you're a great sporting sport team everyone wants to play their best against you. 

Marsha: Hmm. 

Brad: Do you think that that's does that factor in to poke particular your did think it's just you just approach the table the same way and it's just another thought you contend with it's no different. You know what I'm saying? Like it's 

Marsha: yeah, I understand what you're saying and I think it does it does come into it Well, you certainly play differently against different people when I first started the first Say 20 years or so of my poker career. I felt that it was just pretty easy. Everything was like pretty automatic to me. I made that many final tables in the world series. For instance. I thought it was easy. 

Brad: It just didn't occur to you that it was kind of difficult what you were doing. 

Marsha: it didn't

Brad: Hmm. It didn't it's amazing. Yeah. 

Marsha: So I'm probably more nervous now if I enter a big tournament, yes, and I was then. But I'll slide down somewhere. You know, I have to play poker every day or every other day or it's nice to or stay home with my dog 

Brad: And to live, to have other Hobbies. 

Marsha: Well, yeah 

Brad: because it would take did it take like to stay that sharp when there was so much riding on it. Yes, especially when your kids and it's like hmm so much dependent on there and then they will bring him 

Marsha: there were making chips like these chips. my face on oh, well, you know and different places in different casinos and So people collected them and

Brad:  this one is this one says your name 19th Place 1993. 

Marsha: Okay. Yeah 

Brad: It is this and with this hat that you're wearing. Was that something that you were quite a lot of the table Yeah. Well, I'm actually wearing a cowboy hat. Yeah. Yeah. 

Marsha: Well, that's not a cowboy hat and that that particular picture but I had a this one here. I have a big big variety of cowboy hats and I mostly wore those and I explained

Brad:  this is just a hard that your australia You want them to think you're American? No, I was joking. 

Marsha: I have Australian hats to yeah, one of these try accurbras,

Brad: of course, of course. 

Marsha: This one's not that the best I've done in the main event at the World Series with the finished in 12th Place and that was in 1997, you know in poker is bad beats where you get, you know, like she she had with the ace Queen even though he had the ace as which was the better hand to start with his she made her hand before he did. And on the last card which they call the river made him his full that was pretty bad big for her because I was only one more Ace left in the deck. He had to she had one and there's only four so it's called a one outta. So so one card in the deck that he could win with and he and that happens. 

Brad: Yeah, 

Marsha: so that hurts 

Brad: was that is that one of the you have one of those ones

Marsha: Oh, yeah. Not quite as bad. But yeah think I've been there and done that sort of thing. 

Brad: How do you manage that through a long career? Do you just accept it and walk? 

Marsha: I reached a point fairly fairly early in my career after a couple of years or three years or so when I was playing professionally and sometimes I would have to put in a long sessions because I didn't have to but you know when you're losing and you think you're in a good game and you think there's a chance to turn it around you sometimes you Long sessions. And so if I had a losing session and I come home and I wouldn't be as they say quite as kind or sociable. 

Brad: Yeah 

Marsha: at home because I'm thinking about what happened. 

Brad: Yeah, unpacking every hand Yeah. 

Marsha: So yeah, so I did have that bit of a problem where it was hard to take a loss. It's simple really easy to take a lot less when you play well well, but if you can tell yourself you didn't play well. Well, then you have to accept that but I can remember a certain time that I've actually one day when I had a losing session and I'm driving home and I've got the radio on I start singing with the radio and I'm thinking then it suddenly dawned on me. Why am I singing? I lost. I shouldn't be happy. Right. That was the time that very time when I turned around for me that I was able to accept a loss and it didn't bother me. It didn't change anything and it didn't change anything in the way. I've acted her and you're 

Brad: in you're in my and my home life. Yeah. 

Marsha: Yeah. 

Brad: Yeah mystery about it. I think in that unlike a lot of sport. I mean every sport you play for your next check in every Every sport because you do but there's but cards unfold so quickly doesn't it? It's in that hand. It's then in that game. It's that session. It's that day. it's that week. It's it's not like, you know, in other water sports, we've got a seasoned up and down to ride it down it you've got your money and then you walk out you go. Well, I guess I've got to go do something else to get my money again to come back next week. Like how... I guess if there's so much mystery in that for people that don't play it that it's an excitement about it. 

Brad: am i romantisiing it

Marsha: I don't really feel like you're not but I don't really feel like I'm a gambler so to speak. Yeah people think I'm a professional gamblers. I'm not a gambler. I'm a professional poker player is the difference the difference. Is that how I explain is if say you're playing Blackjack you you put your bed out. Then they deal you two cards though. You already put your money out. You doesn't matter what kind of cars they give you. You've got to do the best you can to try and win with those cots, you know, so then my give you a like attending a six and what are your chances of winning with that pretty small, you know, so you have to that's to me is gambling and poker. They give you the card first you look at the cards you decide if those cards you want to invest money in you want to play. So if you do like the cards and you put the money out there and that's the difference. First of all, you have a choice of whether to put money out or throw the cards away - Blackjack, you don't you put the money first and then he gets the cards.

Brad:  It's not poke is where you just kind of just putting it in a waiting. It's like you assessing every step. Yeah. Yeah. 

Marsha: Yeah, so you Got choices to make yeah, 

Brad: what about them this the situations where then you have to after a loss or pick yourself back up and that's where things like is that it's still not gambling though. Is it because you just need It's still a sport even if you have to keep picking yourself up or down or I mean it's different because it's yeah, well, you will see consistently just mean it's not yeah, 

Marsha: so you can choose to play inferior hand say when I say inferior hand, I like you can choose to play said eight nine suited against better hands. Maybe Ace King. King queen or pairs of the thing. So but if you if you you know connect with the Flop, you got a lot of good action and you can win with us kind of cards. So you take a chance. 

Brad: Yeah, 

Marsha: if it doesn't cost too much money to get to see the Flop, you know, it's like everybody Glimpse in then you you're on the button and you've got a five six. Diamonds or something. So I'll look at the Flop and it's just it's just one just one bet. It's sort of bet, you know. (gap)

Brad: It's so much a day to day job that card playing is come up with a term for it, which is a a grinder. That's so much a part of the existence of that whole story. It's got its own term. It's not like, you know grinder. Yeah. What is it like a nine-to-five? I we don't have a term if you do it like an office job for that type of plane. Like do you do you think it's a like it is a real thing. But like, how is it Different - like cash games to tournament games. How is that? 

Marsha: Well cash games and tournament games are totally different and you play differently because in a tournament when you're out you're out. You lose your chips. You're gone. In cash you could rebuy. And add to your chips and continue to play - to wind up being about winning winning there when he session or something, but 

Brad:  what part of your life as opposed to tournaments like in a right mood to animate 

Marsha: but you you go in with a different mindset. Yeah, and that is that you bleep where you probably going to play a tighter as a tournament play until you can build up the chips and then you can use those Chips to do to manipulate other players and if bluff for you or you wait for the best hand and their choices, 

Brad: yeah, once again, you've always got Choice. 

Marsha: Yeah. 

Brad: Yeah. What was it like always, you know traveling to different places and and throughout your it was wonderful. 

Marsha: Yeah. I had a great life and in a poker industry way travel the world playing tournaments. I mean so many places I would never visit otherwise and the other thing is it's fun because wherever you go you go to Europe you go to different countries. I went to Moscow Marrakesh Moscow and um oh South Central America all kinds of places on poker cruises where they 

Brad: yeah. 

Marsha: Okay, wherever you seem to go. You see people you know, the matter where the world your well 

Brad: is it a tight knit community like in that way I guess. 

Marsha: Yeah. Well it's bigger now, but yeah, but used to be a lot smaller just

Brad: because coming up before TV. The games were televised know when you before you made your big trip to Was it is a pretty brave? Yeah move when you think about it, wasn't it? This is what ago? All right. Yeah right now where you can actually see it on television or would see it on you know, right the computer and you go. Oh, yeah, I see how he got that satellite and he got there I can do that. You are just you just blazed a trail. 

Marsha: I really did in a lot of ways. I was you know, one of the very first women poker players to succeed and it as a career obviously 

Brad: that's why those chips 

Marsha: chips that sort of thing. But yeah getting to travel and I got to come back to Australia every year the ground used to bring me back every year for the other Millions for about 10 years and I was treated like worthy. I first class their first day the crown for three weeks or you know, it was it was 

Brad: teach me how to play cards Marsha

Marsha: Said I slide down but I still I'm I did manage to be voted into the Australian Parker Hall of Fame and I was about 10 years ago and I'm in a couple of other Hall of fame's in the u.s. Ladies and the seniors and it's know it makes you feel makes you feel like you have accomplished something out of it all. 

Brad: Yeah, I guess during your Career, you know you're still playing but you're the times in which you know, you were using it to raise your family to do those things. Did you consider yourself a grinder at that time or did you just consider yourself a professional poker player? Like they the same thing or is it different 

Marsha: that they're related for sure. 

Brad: I mean a grinder iisn't as successful as you've beem

Marsha: I mean now I want to play in the shortest amount of time. 

Brad: So you literally just about time. I got her to someone that plays has to play a lot of time in a like I'll just do this and I'm done. Yeah. 

Marsha: Yeah 

Brad: is that really really different. 

Marsha: Um, yes, I think so. I mean people like I live in Las Vegas now, but people that come there like for the weekend, They want to be they want to be playing around the clock, you know, and me. I'm living there. I want to go in when they're tired. 

Brad: You got it down pat. 

Marsha: Yeah, so I don't have to stay so long. Yeah.

Brad:  Yeah. Yeah, 

Marsha: kind of it odd odd part of my family because they don't understand and they don't really have an interested. 

Brad: That's the thing about being a professional poker player or living your life or in cards. It's people we just don't it's so mysterious. 

Marsha: Yes as 

Brad: such this Mystery about it. I mean my brother and I we grew up really enjoying cards and we had a family enjoyed playing cards, but it never really went beyond a Pastime or a hobby right? And There's a love of it but there's so much about it that we don't understand because so much all right in the competitors and then when things happen, we don't really we really can't understand what it is. When someone's playing something in for a reason unless you've gotten really good at it. 

Marsha: Yeah, you know so the but you know a lot of men in particular man. Yeah. It's like known as a man's game at has been over the years really, but I don't know who's more women are getting involved, but notice if I go to see the doctor For anything, they know and I know you know, what do you do for a living? Well, yeah, and they want to talk about all I want to talk about. 

Brad: You must be sick of it 

Marsha: because my professional people, you know,  because they wish that they were card players 

Marsha: Yeah, it's a fantasy that man. Yeah fancy. What do you think that is? Why is it a fantasy? Well because I think it's so much fun us. 

Brad: I've seen too many Bond films man. Yes. Sora yeah, this is Hollywood aspect of it is right. 

Brad: Yeah, it was never like that mother be part of it this part of any career in any job? Hello, 

Marsha: you know when I think back to the earlier days when the big tournaments were running in in Las Vegas, for instance, you know people tourists come to Las Vegas every weekend and there's always like hundreds of people on the rail watching. So these tournament i think that's so boring. How do they spend all their time watching? This is 

Brad: watchin you think about what you're going to do next. 

Marsha: Yeah, but they fascinated people get fascinated with poker and then they probably some of them get it in the idea. I'd like to do that. You know. 

Brad: Yeah, I think we all would like to be good at because there's it's a strength of mind. It's confidence. 

Marsha: Yeah. 

Brad: It's It's comes down to like a moment and it's something that we can all possibly do because you look at other sports and you have to have a certain 4cq have to have a certain sort of genetic code but poker is like you've got people sitting down or cardse out and you go. Well, that could be me. 

Marsha: Yeah and me being a woman I've had I've noticed over the years. I've had a slight Advantage because of that. Yeah and And 

Brad: I can see people don't mind losing to you. 

Marsha: I can get people I can get people to do what I wanted to do. Like I said. guy  here now play good now...  just had a scam on his regular hands are ready with cabbage hands like this five if I get it, so I don't want to flop comes them nine nine five. I think it came and checked him and usually a lot of times after they raised before the Flop. They think it's their duty to continue to bet after the Flop. 

Brad: Yeah, 

Marsha: and so you look for that to and So I check to the guy and he he made a bet on the Flop and I I thought about it. I thought so I raised him. So I put a railing - but you have to - play good. 

Brad: it's goes ook...

Marsha: I had a five I said raise with a fine. 

Brad: didn't know better

Marsha: Yeah, but you know, this is this guy's that they you know, they can't sleep if they think they might have folded winning hand, you know, if you raise them and they have to call you just in case you're bluffing, you know, so you can take advantage of that, too. 

Brad: Yeah, wow

Marsha: you get more action that way 

Brad: just all the scenarios. Yeah, it's hundreds. I'm going to be an infinitely better poker player tomorrow. I'll tell you that much. 

Brad: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. (gap) 

Marsha: Oh, I've had you know medical conditions that I shouldn't survived. Like I had a brain aneurysm. Yeah, and it was found accidentally. 

Brad: how was it found

Marsha: Well, I had a seizure blackout and I'm back down the next time. My husband said we're going to go to the neurologist. So you go to the neurologist and the man he said my husband said to the doctor. Why can't you have an MRI? so he said what you can have an MRI, so I made an appointment for me to go actually pretty much right away and have an MRI at the hospital and no it wasn't I made an appointment because I talk to people and I'm a bit claustrophobic and I didn't like the idea of going in a tube for any period of time to have this MRI so I was going to cancel it but Cool friend of mine. She talked me into it. You said I'm a you just go in there and you just sing this song in your head over and over again and you'll be able to get through it. So I said, oh, okay. And so I went and went to the have the MRI there was a like a beautiful $3,000,000 new MRI machine 

Marsha: that was open. Wow, and I was so surprised and so happy that I could. Tolerate it and I had it done but they said when they saw her on the monitor right monitor, they saw the aneurysm and my brain I had an alien origin. If I had to cancel that appointment, I wouldn't be talking to you today. Yeah, for sure because my grandmother had 56 died of an aneurysm and there's some genetics involved with that sort of thing. But so I had to go in for surgery and it managed to clippard and growth 13 screw still in my head and I recovered. Yeah, that's incredible. it was yeah, it was yeah and you still playing to do you think you wanting like Do you think you paid better not worse? Like was it did it not really matter was you know, I just affect the table and I just felt like I'm on my second life sort of thing, you know because people walk around with aneurysm they Hemorrhage and they're gone. Yeah, you know, so I've been up I've had a few setbacks health-wise but all in all I feel after all these years. Pretty well, generally. Yeah. No, I didn't think I would come out of the operation. I really didn't think I would I mean I was just even see the Sinai Hospital in Allah in Beverly Hills it and I'm looking at the Hollywood Sign, you know, the Hollywood sign and the on the hill and I'm yeah, okay. This is the last one we looking at that and nobody else told I would have my room was just filled with flowers and I came through. 

Brad: What was it like then when you went back to playing poker like straight? 

Marsha: I didn't took a the recovery was a few months. Yeah, but then when I went back I felt okay and when you open your eyes again, after thinking that you would never see the Hollywood sign again. Oh that was pretty tough. That was pretty tough because they, you know, they do major surgery. Might put my face on here. That's okay. It's pretty tough. But I was fortunate to get the surgeon who was probably the best in the country who specialized in nothing, but brain aneurysms. Yeah, and only got that way because of connections. I have people in this case. It was Larry Flynt because they're afraid. Thank you know who I don't know if you saw the movie or not, but he was shocked and he's in a wheelchair and 

Brad: my friend Larry Flynt is sorry for those listening. You don't know. Well, they might think the publisher the publisher 

Marsha: my friend used to play poker with him and his home. He now owns a casino call The Hustler, but so I said to my friend well when I first wanted to go in Cedar's because I found out that was where the best neurological team was. They said that awful they're going to take me so the doctor wanted me to have the surgery in another hospital where they only had one neurosurgeon and I said, what are we what if he has a heart attack mid surgery? Yeah, then what so I tell my friend ichikawa power plant in Tell him I need to go to Cedars-Sinai because he owns about a wing of it. And the next thing I know I got it. I was in there the hospital. I got a phone call from this surgeon whose name was Wooten shipping and he said down come on. I'm waiting for you. So that's how I got in there. I got an ambulance over there, and I'm the way Yeah, 

Brad: and it goes on and on it goes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What do you feel like it's like through all the different highs and lows of being in a life. Okay? Yeah. I know. It's you mean I like the yeah, it's not just professional than its know. What do what do you think about that? 

Marsha: Well, I have to quote the the pretty well man saying in program is it's a tough way to make it easy living. Because it really is not easy. It's kind of tough. And you do have to go through the highs and lows and I guess you become resilient if you're if you're going to stay with it. So I must have done that 

Brad: clearly i don't know if you want to these chips again. amazing. I think that's a great place to wrap it up. Thank you very much.